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Is this the first step towards the Official World Rankings?
Authored by: Brett Northey on Wednesday, March 17 2010 @ 11:10 pm ACDT


Such diverse opinions! I actually think some 9s SHOULD be included in this scheme.

If a team performs well in 9s, is fielding an all or mostly local players (i.e. very few expat Aussies), and plays well against similar opposition, particularly such a country already ranked, then surely that does show they are a good team.

I understand that at first glance comparing 9s and 18s could be like comparing apples and oranges, but at this stage they are all of the same family of game. And if we think 15s or 16s are ok then what of 14s or 12s or 9s? And we are suggesting that International Cup games be worth double, which I agree with, yet not even those matches are full length 20 mins + time on.

Clearly in an ideal world we only include 18s. But 9s is very common in Europe. I'd much rather include appropriate data from those countries so they are ranked and recognised for their matches.

A separate 9s system has drawbacks such as:

- needing a whole separate lot of work
- does not help the 9s nations be included in the main rankings
- has a heavy mix of expats/handicaps/not always full national selection
- is almost entirely limited (at international level) to Europe, so it would be just a European 9s ranking. I'm struggling to think of any other international tournaments played as 9s in recent years besides the CEAFL and EU Cup? Dubai 9s. Anything else?

So I would like to see us carefully consider a small set of 9s results to be included. Perhaps just as IC matches are worth double exchange points, so might 9s be worth only 75% of exchange points. Over time, if the country moves to playing only 16s or 18s then those newer results will be far more dominant. A question would be if they played a combination of 9s and 18s. Do we include both?

So I suggest that if a country plays 9s, with all or almost all locals, against a side of similar content, then it be included (at 75% value). No system will be perfect, so I don't have a problem with that mix and match. There's nothing in the mathematics of the proposed rankings system that means matches of different player numbers can't be put together. As with all the other matches, we would go through and verify with nations whether they think it was a valid match.

And yes Cam, I think I should write you a program to make handling and adjusting the data easier.

---
Brett Northey - Co-founder and Chief Editor of WFN

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Is this the first step towards the Official World Rankings?
Authored by: David Verngren on Wednesday, March 17 2010 @ 11:33 pm ACDT

I can see that point Brett about some 9s SHOULD be included.

But as you pointed out "where do we draw the line" ie 18/16/14/12.. Where do we draw the line of which 9's to be included?
Now I'm fairly new in the game, but as you pointed out, which cups have 9's rules, from what I can see, there are more cups for 9's than 18's.
I only know of the IC and now, the inaugural EC in Denmark/Sweden.

Its hard for developing countries to field an all national side. Not only for 18's but also for 9's. I do not know how the development in Oceania/South Africa and North America is, with regards to beeing able to fill the whole squad with nationals.
Maybe an idea for the points is: If an expat-aussie plays for a 9's team, then 11% of those points are deducted. if 2 play, 22% etc etc.. Same rule could apply for a 18's game, with modified percentages. Just throwing up ideas to discuss, not saying they are great or even good.

Bottom line however for me, is that 9's for me is a completely different game regarding, tactics, positions and the overall flow of the game. But yes Brett, they come from the same family of games.. and maybe the sport just isnt big enough to have to complex world rankings running just right now.

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Is this the first step towards the Official World Rankings?
Authored by: Brett Northey on Thursday, March 18 2010 @ 12:11 am ACDT


Exactly David, we're all just kicking around ideas and bouncing them off each other.

Yeah, certainly my initial gut feel was that there is insufficient data for a statistical model for rankings. But some of Cam's results, and given the forthcoming Euro Champs and Oceania Cup, gave me reason to think it may work. Especially if relevant 9s can be included.

In terms of you saying there's more 9s tournaments, yes kind of. Certainly a lot of club 9s. But in terms of internationals, what do we have? The EU Cup and CEAFL (held occasionally and was the forerunner to the EU Cup and mostly stood aside when the EU Cup got going). Not sure what numbers the recent Scotland and Wales matches have used.

The Middle East 9s wouldn't really count at this stage as almost all are expat Aussies. In Asia I think the Asian Champs are played with larger squads, although again, mostly expats although slowly changing.

South Africa these days don't get to play internationals against other countries outside of the IC, though their matches against the Boomerangs and Australian U17s are 18s. (I guess we could chuck Australia in with ranking points based on the U17s!)

But the US play Canada regularly in 18s. Ireland, GB and Denmark have been playing a 3-way series as 18s, or at least "Tests" between the 3 of them. Germany, Sweden and Denmark had the same briefly.

So I think outside of the EU Cup I don't see a lot of 9s internationals. Anyone else think of any?

---
Brett Northey - Co-founder and Chief Editor of WFN

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Is this the first step towards the Official World Rankings?
Authored by: Joel Adin Porretta on Thursday, March 18 2010 @ 10:51 am ACDT

Good point david. I think games should be a least 14 a side.

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